Confounded
A high energy podcast with its own video channel featuring interviews with amazing people who have overcome adversity and life’s challenges to be successful in unique and wonderful ways.
Confounded
Confronting Imposter Syndrome: From Self-Doubt to Authentic Leadership
Meet Tara Halliday PhD – Imposter Syndrome Specialist
Ever feel like a fraud at the peak of your success? You're in good company as we unpack the elusive imposter syndrome with our guest expert, Tara, who holds a PhD in the subject. We kick off by peeling back the layers of this psychological pattern, distinguishing it from mere low self-esteem.
Tara enlightens us on how our worth isn't measured by our accolades and how childhood beliefs might be the true culprits behind those nagging doubts.
Join us as we explore why that nagging voice in your head might be more than just a passing worry. We look at the telltale signs of imposter syndrome, from stress responses to perfectionism, and discuss how these internal battles can take a toll on our careers and mental health.
Recognising imposter syndrome is just the beginning; our conversation sheds light on the misconceptions that can lead to isolation and self-sabotage. We discover that acknowledging these feelings is the first step toward overcoming them, and we provide the initial tools to start that journey.
MUSIC. So hi Tara, welcome to Confirmed TV.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much, alistair, great to be here.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I've wanted to have you on the show for quite a long time. Tara is an author and an expert. She has a PhD and her specialisation is in imposter syndrome, something which a lot of my listeners will all pretend doesn't happen to them, but we all know it actually does. So I think the key thing is, tara, is we all have a view of what imposter syndrome is based on the probably a lot of nonsense that we see on LinkedIn and various channels. Could you actually start by telling us what it actually is?
Speaker 1:Yes, so imposter syndrome is the secret feeling of being fraught and not good enough when you're not, and it's the fear, on top of that, of being found out. And that is the heart of imposter syndrome.
Speaker 2:So that's quite interesting. I hadn't thought of the when you're not so, because I always thought you had it regardless of success, or you just feel you're doing this thing, you don't know how you got there, you don't deserve it, was the thing I kind of took away from it and you're saying actually I can have this thing and I can actually be a success and I can still really badly suffer from this.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. If you weren't good enough, if you genuinely weren't good enough or you felt like that in all areas of your life, we'd call that low self-esteem. And it wouldn't be, then, a high achiever?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Imposter syndrome shows up most in high achievers, when they're really trying to stretch themselves or really get something remarkable done.
Speaker 2:And that's why it's so confusing for people, because it's obvious, because if it's low self-esteem, I'm just rubbish at everything. But actually it's high achievers who are saying I don't know why I think I'm good at I'm being told I'm good at this thing, but I don't really believe that I am.
Speaker 1:Definitely that's it, because intellectually, logically, you know you're good enough, but you're just not feeling it on the inside, and so there's this gap in your brain that creates a lot of confusion.
Speaker 2:Is it linked to the fact that some high achievers, well, we quite open and say I am a high achiever because of something that happened in my past, or my appearance was incredibly poor and I was driven not to be like that, or I had trouble in early life. So, therefore, the drive to which has made them a high achiever is not linked to the fact that they've recognised in their brain that they're a high achiever.
Speaker 1:It's a sense of not feeling good enough, and that can come from a challenging childhood, for example. Definitely that's one of the drivers. But you can also get it if you're somebody who had every possible opportunity and a luxurious childhood. A sense of not feeling good enough. People would automatically assume that you got the job because your dad knows somebody. So it does go across the board. But that sense of I'm not quite good enough, that my worth depends on what I do. That is the belief that underlies all of imposter syndrome and that is basically the way our society is set up. It's something that, unless you unlearn it as a young child, then you carry it with you as an unconscious belief and it gets reinforced in everything that we do.
Speaker 2:So you're saying that we actually learn this as a child and we just take it with us. It's not something like oh my goodness, I've sold to Google for a hundred million and people are saying I was the best found in the world. I have no idea and I don't really believe it myself. Are you saying, actually it isn't. When you get over, I'll call it over promoted? That's what always happened to me in the past when you get over promoted and you feel you should be doing it, or is it actually something you've learned way, way, way before as a child, in school or whatever?
Speaker 1:It's an unconscious belief, so most people aren't aware of it. Some people are definitely aware of it. Oh, I don't feel like I'm good enough. Most people, it's all conscious. So, as you're a young child, when you're a baby, you don't have a sense of I a sense of myself.
Speaker 1:And actually that takes quite a little while to actually generate that sense of I. And so, as you're starting to be socialized, if you think of a two-year-old, you should be quite with the world. There is this part where you don't have a distinction between yourself and your actions.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's what I call the furniture.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So when you get told don't do that which could be the good reasons, like running out in front of the car I would stop, hold back or don't do that or that's bad. We take it as I'm bad. So if I do something good, I am good. If I do something bad, I am bad. So that's the fundamental idea that you're worth as a human being is conditional, and unless you get explicitly taught that as a young child, when you develop that sense, of I a separation between worse and behavior, then we just carry it forwards.
Speaker 2:And then it just disappears in your teenager, I'm guessing, a lot of the time, and it pops back out when you find yourself as a grown-up Does that be fair.
Speaker 1:It will show up in different ways at all stages, that sense of not feeling good enough, and with higher chiefers it's not in everything. It often just shows up in one particular area of their lives or area of their work.
Speaker 2:It is a strange thing, isn't it? Because I've spoken to many founders over the years and I think, when you've had a few beers, some of them will be more honest than others, and I actually believe there's a little bit of self-doubt. And then there's this thing underneath it. So I think there's a little bit of self-doubt, like how did I get here? Like I spoke to one and raised five million the other day, and he's kind of like it was just an idea, but I don't think he's got any doubts in his ability to do it. He doesn't really feel like imposter syndrome is just like oh shit.
Speaker 2:And then I've met others who really are doing it and have been honest and said I don't understand. I'm doing this thing, I feel like I'm going through the motions, but I don't deserve to be here. I don't understand him here and I'm not really sure I can do it. And this is despite having like 200 staff, and that is terrifying. That's not terrifying, that's harsh. It's weird, though, that they kind of wake up oh my God, get in the car, drive to the office now. Hey guys, let's get this thing done. And it's kind of like inside there's something going help, right, and that's 200 staff.
Speaker 1:That's it, and bigger and bigger and bigger.
Speaker 2:I work with corporate executives and founders and thousands, of, tens of thousands of staff Billions of others group CEOs.
Speaker 1:I mean it's something that as you get to that higher levels, it shows up more because imposter syndrome comes and goes.
Speaker 2:It must be worse the bigger, because it's almost like this. It must be worse the bigger the responsibility. But definition if I run BP, I kind of wake up one day and I'm 45 and I'm running BP. I must you've got to think it's a dream some days, or how did that happen? Or I can't do this Right. Just I mean, if you imagine and this is here we'll come back to this good question I've got in my head here, I mean that must just be the case that you think why am I running 45,000 people in a $100 billion business or whatever the crazy numbers are?
Speaker 2:Because how did you get there? Because the time passes so fast? There must be this time thing where time passes fast when you're busy and high achievers work really hard, the higher work rates because they're not working their cycling or going to gym or something, and then they just get there really quickly. For the sake of people who aren't watching on YouTube, I'm doing my hand and I kind of up into the right kind of graph way, so really fast to get there. What feels really fast? Actually, 20 years, wake up one day running BP. Oh shit, that must happen a lot, I'm guessing.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. There's two kind of effects in there. One is the you know if you're climbing a mountain right and you just next step, next step, next step. Yes, that's much better, and then you stop, we've come around and you go, wow, look at that. And for you that's incredible and gosh, I can't believe that I've got to this level. And that doesn't have to be about doubting yourself, that can just be.
Speaker 1:wow, isn't this amazing? How I never would have thought that from back there in the valley there would have been this view up here. How it's exhilarating, because success and really stretching and challenging yourself is exhilarating. You think, gosh, this is great. It's when you start making it mean something about you, right? I mean, oh my gosh, do I deserve this? Maybe I don't deserve this, maybe it was a fluke, maybe I just got lucky and maybe people are going to find me out. I just you know, it was just a series of rolls of the dice.
Speaker 2:Which it was.
Speaker 1:And somebody's going to find out, and that's that.
Speaker 2:When you look at this as a sort of from an actual education point of view, my, my, my amateur point of view, would say it is a bunch of rolls of the dice, right, but is it?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Do you think it is? I mean from the door?
Speaker 1:No, so people think it's a roll of the dice, that it's nothing to do with them, because they discount their own talents and their own skills. They say, oh, everyone could have done it. I think, oh, I just got lucky right. So that might just sound polite or humble or something like that. But the fact is they have worked and intellectually they know that they have worked. They have worked down hard, they have worked and really put in the effort. They have got natural talent, natural skills. They have learned some really good ways of either analyzing things or dealing with people. They have been particularly creative. So they have genuinely achieved it. Because you don't get to be the head of a large company without having some ability.
Speaker 2:Is that? Is that? Do you see that? That it appears more of people who don't have an actual expertise than those who do Like if I'm the CTO, I can do coding, I can. I've come from a coding background, I can do that. If I'm the CEO, the chances are I have not got that skill, I have not got the accountancy skills, I've not got the HR skills. Does it appear more in the generalists who tend to run things, than the people who are like the CTO of BP, for example?
Speaker 1:It makes no difference.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow, okay, I wasn't expecting that. I was expecting, yeah, generalists are a bit vague, so it doesn't make any difference.
Speaker 1:No, because, because. So one of the classic imposter syndrome behaviors is perfectionism, and one form of perfectionism is knowledge perfectionism. I must be right, I must know everything.
Speaker 1:So you can be highly technically skilled, you can be CEO with a tech background and still feel like I don't know everything. And what you do then is you would ever prepare for any kind of meeting presentation, something like that, so you put way more into it than it warrants. You'd work far harder to make sure that you have every single answer, just in case someone else, so that they won't catch you out, so that you won't be wrong.
Speaker 2:Protect your shell. Yeah yeah, it's like you're an egg in a delicate shell. You got to put the armor up in case somebody pokes a hole in it.
Speaker 1:That's it.
Speaker 2:Wow. So one of the things we're going to talk about is how do you spot it, and off the back of that I would like to talk about is it a good or a bad thing in the workplace? So let's go with how do you spot it first. This is for yourself, not for how you spot it on other people.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So trying to spot it in other people, just saying that is going to be very difficult because people hide it. I see it as one part of it. And so many of my clients say that everyone around them is telling them how competent they are.
Speaker 2:How competent they are.
Speaker 1:So it's a case of more like you're disregarding that feedback, so how do you spot it in yourself There'll?
Speaker 1:be, two or three typical ways. One is in terms of the stress itself, your physiology. So the stress of imposter syndrome can trigger the fight, flight and freeze response and so that is the physiological. Your blood pressure changes, you get less blood flow to your thinking part of your brain and you might go blank. You literally can't think or you're not making this good decision. So there's things like that in there. So you'll feel you're off your game or you'll feel you're more reactive. The emotions that go with that would be you get angry more easily or more impatient, you get anxiety or you can't sleep at night, dread one day morning, or you get this sense of overwhelm and that's when you go into the freeze state and it's procrastination and things like that. So that's all the physiology. So some people just notice that part of it. They just notice that you know I'm very stressed. This is hard work, this is harder than it should be. That's the feeling. The other part is the imposter syndrome behaviors and that's like the perfectionism I mentioned, the over-preparing there is.
Speaker 2:Covering your cracks for not feeling like you're very good, basically.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So that's the kind of thing you might avoid situations, avoid promotions. You know I was talking to one client and he you know business advisor and he said he's imposter syndrome and cost him 100,000 pounds a year for the last three years because he hadn't gone for particular contracts, because he didn't feel he was good enough. Another would be didn't go for a particular promotion because he couldn't take every single box rather than just be graded all of it. So you know it has a very real consequence in that sense.
Speaker 2:So who gets it? Is there a type? There is no the question there. It's a great question. Well, yes, there's a few answers to this question. Let's start with just who gets it.
Speaker 1:Who gets it? So 70% of high achievers experience imposter syndrome at some point in life. That they recognize, that they recognize, that's a very good catch, because there are people who are in denial. They would never admit to it. There are people who don't recognize it in themselves and so they're oblivious to it, and there are people who avoid a particular situation that might trigger their imposter syndrome.
Speaker 2:OK. So this is an example of a situation where that might occur.
Speaker 1:So a high challenge situation can be starting a business, getting some investment, getting a promotion or getting a big project, so something like that. Long support can be simply that you don't have anyone like a mentor or something that you can go to to talk things through. Or an extreme version of low support is when you're in a toxic work environment.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So you've got a bully in the workplace and things like that, and imposter syndrome tends to come and go when you've got a culmination of high challenge and low support. I wouldn't necessarily say it shows up in how you interact with the people around you.
Speaker 2:OK.
Speaker 1:Because it's not that easy to spot. There is a sense of isolation with a positive syndrome.
Speaker 1:Because everyone keeps it a secret. When you feel it, you think it's just you. Yes, nobody else gets this. Or if they don't get it nearly as bad as me. So this is just a big feeling of isolation and it's inexplicable. It's inexplicable. You don't really understand why. So you try and think why am I feeling? What's different about me?
Speaker 1:And then people can start creating more sorts of stories. They're looking for this cause and effect. I'm feeling bad. Why am I feeling bad? They're looking for something obvious. There's often something outside of them. Maybe I didn't get good enough education All of these have got this qualification or I haven't. Maybe I need to get more qualifications. Maybe I have the wrong accent, maybe I've come from the wrong part of the country or the wrong part of the world. So we're looking for these logical reasons for it. We're not looking inside at the fundamental cause of it. We're just trying to connect the dots. So all of that just increases that sense of isolation and that it must be just me. And then from that you can conclude there must be something wrong with me. Maybe I'm not good enough.
Speaker 1:Maybe I don't belong at this level.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there must be loads of airtime talked about coming from the north or whatever going to the wrong school. You can see it is constantly. Actually, if you think of it, it's like a gentle banging drum in the background about all these things and that's actually maybe people talking about it because they're trying to say I got here but I shouldn't be here, despite my school, despite these things. There's a great guy called Zuby on Twitter who says everyone who talks about failing to achieve and blaming other people in the Western world, especially in Europe, he says just rubbish. He said because everyone's got an opportunity here, compared to in every other country where it's really hard. And I think he even talked about it's people looking inwards Instead of just going, just get home with it.
Speaker 2:So what you're saying there is that you've got a post syndrome. You may or may not recognize it, and then you go to you cast around for the reasons. So, even though you've achieved something, you then cast around for reasons to justify how you got there, because you don't think you should be there. Yes, I'm too Scottish to run this company, that's it. You know, that is amazing. So people come to you and say when is it that? People come to you and say how do they recognize there's something amiss? How do they find you? Because unless you've heard about post syndrome because it's talked about endlessly in places like TechCrunch and TechStuff but it's not talked about, I imagine, printing weekly or car attire monthly how do people find out they've got it, how do they find what it is and how do they come to you?
Speaker 1:So it's an educational thing. A lot of my work, my posts on LinkedIn, my blogs are educational part. This is what it post a syndrome is, this is what it looks like, this is the cause of it, this is what you can do about it. And so a lot of the time people come to me and they say, yeah, I really resonate. I completely recognize myself and I can see and I thought you're writing about me.
Speaker 2:Wow, you're leaving a trail of breadcrumbs basically across LinkedIn, right, and people come across it however they do and they go oh, that's me. And then they start looking more at what you've written. So in your book you talk about the coaches guide to imposter syndrome. Do you wanna tell us about the book and what that does?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the book is called Unmasking when I came out in early 2018. And it's as you say, it's the coaches guide to imposter syndrome, because what I wanted to do was educate more and more people about imposter syndrome.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's not fixing the person's way. Let's educate.
Speaker 1:Exactly so. People are aware of it and coaches, and that's coaches and that's also, you know, mentors and counselors, people like that.
Speaker 2:Also, people in HR are able to recognise this. Absolutely, you know people come in saying I feel really bad at work, especially at the moment. You know, as HR have responsibilities to look after people and if they recognise this, they could probably help the business as a whole.
Speaker 1:Exactly yes, so that the reason I wrote it was this educational thing and to help coaches deal with it. Because if somebody comes to you and saying you know it's really weird but I'm not feeling very confident, then it's easy for a coach to start working on building up their confidence. I feel it, but in positive syndrome isn't a confidence issue and these people are confident because they're competent in what they do. It's just they're not feeling it and that's the difference and it's getting to that heart of it. So my goal for my book was that more people could find out and more people could know what to do and what not to do when helping people. So a multiplier effect it's really interesting, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Because one thing you said there, it's confident. So like this is just like. It's like a therapy session for me for free. Because, like confidence is not my issue, right, that's it. But inside I have, you know this.
Speaker 2:When I first read about this, I mean years ago I was like, oh yes, so that's why I'm too open and I wear my harness. So I go to the pub with other founders and say I got this thing. I don't even understand how I'm here, I don't really know, I don't think I've got the skills to do this. And then, because I'm so open, some people say that's me especially. English are even more reserved than the Scots, right, so I get a little glimmer into it and then I'd poke and whatever. But everyone I know like that is incredibly confident. You know, just raise 400 and four and let's do these amazing things and change one. But I always linked the impossible into effectively in lack of confidence. But it's not actually like that. You've got the confidence for good reason, because you've done things. Some people may have overconfident, but what you're saying is internally this isn't a what's the word I'm looking for, and it's not a lack of confidence internally. It's a different system at play.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Actually a different part of your brain is doing a different thing. It's not confidence in the outside lack of confidence in the inside. It's actually a broken bit of you inside saying I shouldn't be doing this.
Speaker 1:Yes, I wouldn't quite guess for far as to say people are broken. Okay, it's normal, sorry.
Speaker 2:It's a normal thing that you need to address and understand. Let's fix it that way.
Speaker 1:Well, so one of the things to understand about imposter syndrome is that it's not you.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:That's a really, really important thing. And if we go into the neuroscience of you, know how this manifests. There's a part of the brain called the amygdala. Okay, it's just kind of behind the eyes, in front of the ears. There's two and the amygdala is like a virus checker Right. So all of the information that you come in through all of your senses and your thoughts passes first through the amygdala, because it's looking out for danger.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Just doing what it's supposed to do and look out, there's a tiger behind that. I can hear the growl. Yeah, it's a very primitive system that's designed to keep you safe, and so that's always filtering the information. And then there are certain things that will trigger the amygdala. So the belief of I'm not good enough can trigger the amygdala. So it might be, because it's often in certain situations. Maybe it's doing a presentation to a particular client, maybe it's publishing your work or doing a podcast, or it can be anything like that and if the amygdala gets triggered, then it puts you into the fight, flight and freeze response.
Speaker 1:That's when your blood pressure changes your blood distribution changes and you can't think so.
Speaker 2:Brain goes foggy yeah.
Speaker 1:Brain fog and all of that. Yeah, that's exactly it. So that's really how imposter syndrome kind of manifests. And then when we look at our own behavior and go, what's wrong with me? We start judging ourselves for it. And then that's really the problem and the conclusion that we make is I'm not good enough. I can't be good enough. If I've done thousands of these presentations, why am I still freaking out about it? Why am I not speaking up in this particular meeting? I know the answers and I'm not making the contribution that I want to. You start beating yourself up for it. I'm not good enough. I've had people who talk about giving themselves a pep talk, I think trying to like the confidence thing. I'm not feeling good, so I'll give myself a pep talk. Okay, well, what does that look like? Well, I tell myself I'm being stupid and I should pull myself up with myself together. That's not a pep talk, that's a beating yourself up.
Speaker 2:Mike, is that not normal, Honestly? Is that so that, okay, oh, wow, okay, I thought I was completely normal going to do presentations stand outside for five minutes shouting at yourself internally obviously and then go and do a presentation having given yourself the sort of the big talking to? Is that not normal?
Speaker 1:It's amazing, very, very, very, very common, and it's all down to us trying to make sense of how come I'm achieving so well and I'm not feeling successful, I'm not feeling like a success.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that's quite interesting, isn't it? It must be awful doing this in the public eye. Do you have anyone who's in the public eye? Because that must be worse. I see it in the public eye. I'm like you know 4,000 people linked in, I mean 400,000 people on. You know decent YouTube channels, I mean because it must be even worse. The bigger gets, which is why, of course, personalities on TV used to break down, right, because they must be.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you saw the thing with George Michael, I mean the other night. Did you see that? I didn't? No, oh, there's absolutely fabulous documentary about George Michael and basically you should definitely watch this, right.
Speaker 2:So he hid behind his leather jacket and his glasses all those years, partly because he was hiding the fact he was gay. But then he didn't believe he was good enough, and the only time he did is when he went on stage Like he literally was trying to get caught with the police. He was literally trying to destroy himself. He didn't believe he deserved all the adulation and respect.
Speaker 2:And, of course, when it's like on steroids, when you're one of the most famous people in the world and it seemed to me watching it the other night I was thinking of you in this podcast thinking that's what he was suffering from, like why should he be here? Because, also, andrew Ridgely was the talented one, okay, so when they did it, wow, and he wrote the songs, andrew did the stuff and he was just, he was like he was shy and inward and just tried to be a mini me right With Andrew. And then, of course, he did his own stuff and he took off and then his support, his rock, was gone because he went from one when he had Andrew to and honestly, I was watching the whole thing going this is just a great day in Posse syndrome all day long and, like, obviously it led to his death.
Speaker 1:Yes, and in the extreme situations it can lead to that. It can lead to burnout, it can lead to people ending their careers. You know just, you're walking away from the businesses. On that, there are certain level and, yeah, you do see it in celebrities. It's quite easy to see, In fact, Meryl Streep, the actress who has won more awards than anyone else in history. Yeah has talked about her own imposter syndrome and saying, when she's been offered a new part, saying, well, why would anyone want to come and see?
Speaker 2:Bloody hell.
Speaker 1:No, Albert Einstein mentioned it, Neil Armstrong, who walked on the moon. Why do I deserve to be in this group of August company? It's so common that that's what surprises me more than anything is how something can be so common and at the same time, so secret, Because it's a weakness, because I guess there's a lot of it.
Speaker 2:It's a weakness. People are like it's getting better. I mean, people didn't like topic weaknesses but it's getting a lot better in the last decade.
Speaker 1:Definitely. It's definitely improving and people assume it's a weakness, and I think that's it, that they make it mean something about them. Maybe I'm not good enough. I must be flawed, it must be a character deep.
Speaker 2:It goes back around to if I think this is a weakness, it's because I'm not good enough.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, so it reinforces it. But imposter syndrome is like having a nail in your shoe. You walk along, it's painful, you can try and ignore it. It's not going to go away and it'll keep coming back the more you try to pressure on it. You know go faster, go further.
Speaker 2:You're going to have to stop and reassess the shoe.
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly. So the solution whether you see it as the shoe is really obvious. You take the nail out With imposter syndrome. You've got this pain, this stress, this discomfort. You can't see anything obvious for it, you can't explain it very well. So you think it must be you. You think it must be, you think the nail is you, and so you don't even look for a solution. You're just trying to hide. You're just trying to hide it.
Speaker 2:Yes, that makes sense. The nail doesn't exist because it's just you, and until you, and then when you identify the nail does exist, then you can. You can address it Like a lot of mental issues. Really, you know it's just you until you identify that it's not actually just you and there's something you can do about it. Yes, so how'd you go about? What can you do about it?
Speaker 1:Yes, that's the question.
Speaker 2:The obvious next question. I've got a nail help.
Speaker 1:Well, the very first part is, like you said, about the education, knowing about it and knowing that it's not you, it's a nail, it's something external to you, it's a belief that you never un and beliefs can be unknown. So then you can manage imposter syndrome. So this is, without taking the nail out. You can work to work with your nervous system and work with ways of calming your nervous system. That's going to help you have less extreme reactions to the stress of it, so that's going to be useful.
Speaker 1:And the other part is to get support. So that'd be something to talk things through with. And support can even be logistical support in terms of organizing your life and getting someone in to do the chores, just so that you've got more time and less stress and you're more able to manage. So getting calm and getting more support is how you can manage imposter syndrome. And then the ultimate way to get rid of it is to change that belief. There are systematic ways that you can change the belief and make it so it doesn't trigger that amygdala in your brain that you're looking out for the danger, so that the things that you previously labeled as danger aren't danger. So you can see, it's not about standing in front of the mirror like Superman and saying good enough, I'm all right.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I'm sorted now, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it doesn't work because you're amygdala still got it. You have to actually do work that actually works through the way that the brain works and the way the brain is designed to work. And so what happens when you get rid of it is then the confidence internal, how you're feeling is effortless. It's like you forget to doubt yourself.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's not like you need more confidence to fix the thing at the bottom. What you just need is, like, the balance in the middle. So I think a lot of people hide this fact. With more confidence, I don't feel confident, so therefore I'll be more confident on the outside. So actually, what you don't need is that you can just bring that back because you've addressed the issue. So I am just me. I can go and do this podcast. I'm quite happy because I no longer stress and worry about the responsibility on the guests. It becomes less of a guilt and more of a fact, like, if you come on, you will get this, I will get that and we will have a great time. Yeah, and you just almost like you neutered the thing.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly. And when you turn down that noise and destruction of the double tracking of imposter syndrome, when you turn all that down, what emerges is all your natural talents and stress. You start doing a podcast because it's a lot of fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because you know it's a positive and business development way of but you can see across all spectrums of business sectors and all roles. I could see how, if you take away the Whether you're fixing it with overconfidence, or fixing it with overanalyzing, or over present preparation or over All these things are just grinding you down slowly, right In the back of your mind. That's what they're doing Energy, brain power, brain time. What you're saying is you start to address that nail that takes away the sort of gulf between the two ends. One end is your over-prep or over-confidence that you're producing, and then there's your actual, your anxiety around it and you sort of bring them together so you're just in a nice sort of state of flow, really as you, without the wave of the roller coaster that goes with it. Is that, without me, a good assumption?
Speaker 1:That's a great way of putting it and certainly that roller coaster. What happens with that roller coaster is that it becomes shallower roller coaster. You don't get so obsessed with the highs. You enjoy them without women making you a little bit crazy, and then you don't get so dragged down by the lows. So it's building your resilience and that's what human beings are naturally resilient, and that's our adaptability as one of our greatest features. And the more we can clear that distraction from our mind and positive syndrome, the more resilient and capable we're going to be. And basically, the more we're going to enjoy things, we're going to enjoy the success, enjoy the view at the top of the mountain and go, wow, isn't this amazing?
Speaker 2:Because a lot of people don't enjoy where they are. They can have raised money or they've built their business or they've done really well. They're a partner, legal firm and a lot of people who have to the average person, including me. I look at them and think that's awesome, well done, but they're not enjoying themselves. In fact, they're desperate to get out, which is why you see all these high achievers bailing out to go what to kept man doing stuff? Because actually they're running away from it. That's the saddest thing.
Speaker 2:So I've got to ask you, I want to ask you how people can actually get in touch with you Before I do. I've got to ask because has the last 18 months changed anything about people's behaviour? Who have got this? Because now you don't have to be face to face, you've only got to do Zoom for however many hours a day, or not at all if you're really lucky. Has that impacted people's behaviour, people's response to having this, or people who you know, who you've been treating and talking to, who have got it? Have they found it easier or harder?
Speaker 1:So it's a bit of both. So for people for whom presentations of being in the spotlight is the most difficult thing, then many of them find that the distance, by not being there in person, makes it a little bit easier.
Speaker 2:Okay that's interesting.
Speaker 1:So you can say this is part of that, hiding part of it. Hiding can be not speaking up. Hiding can be literally being more distant. What happens with the Zoom is particularly when you're in a meeting. You're always there, right, there's always that little square with you and you can't even hide it from yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can't hide it from yourself unless you don't look at your own screen and that can make some people feel even more put on the spot, even more like somebody is going to catch them out, because if you're in a meeting, somebody speaks who's looking at that person? Who's speaking in a Zoom meeting? Everybody's still there on the screen. So everybody's seeing everybody's reaction the whole time. So people feel more under the microscope and more vulnerable to being caught out. So that's what I've seen in my clients, so it has changed things. Some people are feeling good about the space that they're getting because they're not having to commute, they've got a good space at home to work. And other people are feeling very stressful In terms of the nervous system in the brain. What happens is that we regulate our nervous system by the other people around us. So if you were a group of cavemen in a cave and one of them jumped and went, ah, then everybody would look sad.
Speaker 2:Everyone jumps. He comes to see the two tiger guys.
Speaker 1:Exactly so. We're kind of like an external extension of our own nervous system right, We've got bigger alert. And the opposite happens when you're with someone who's calm and relaxed and playful or laughing or something like that, and it tends to calm and relax you because they're behaviors that are you know there's not a tiger in the roof they're safety behaviors. So we calm each other down or we can stir each other up by our own nervous system. We get far less cues from other people when we're on Zoom, so if you're in a meeting, your brain would be picking up everybody's body language Every little twitch or eyebrow rakes, even if you're not delivering or if there's a little breast inside, because you don't get that with the Zoom meeting.
Speaker 1:You know people are like you speak, but you can see them, so you can't see that. They're micro expressions.
Speaker 2:You know you can't see the fingers on the desk, the way they tap the phone or the way the pen starts twitching through the hand. It's all that stuff that's missing, isn't?
Speaker 1:it. It's that kind of stuff and because there's so much noise distraction you can't hear, you know the change in breathing patterns. There are all these clues that you get from people around you. So being isolated in terms of being away from people like that is more stressful for the nervous system.
Speaker 2:So if people feel they have this and they want to like have a conversation, buy your book, try and understand it. Where's the best place to reach out to you?
Speaker 1:So the book is on Amazon. Unmasking my website is completesuccesscouk and I'm also on LinkedIn.
Speaker 2:And you're very. I've seen a lot of your LinkedIn stuff. It's really good, yeah, thank you. It gets a lot of interactions. Everybody goes oh, that's me.
Speaker 1:Well, it's interesting because some do and some don't. A lot of people would never put that on a public forum and in fact, what I do with my clients is on LinkedIn. I never comment on their posts like their posts make me kind of Wow, of course. Because you know, my tagline says it includes imposter syndrome specialists. They don't want to be having an insiposter syndrome. Congratulations on your new job. How great. Yeah, though I send them a private message.
Speaker 2:I don't do anything public. Oh, that's interesting. People still not confident. You've helped me fix my anxiety issues around my performance, but still, please don't comment on that on LinkedIn, because I would be admitting what I've perceived to be a weakness, which isn't a weakness which we discussed earlier.
Speaker 1:But they feel comfortable in on the sales. But not everybody knows that it's not a weakness. Everyone still treats it as a weakness. So there's this stigma that's going to be around for, I'd imagine, quite some time.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'd be all yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's ridiculous because you know this is 70% are aware of it, and that's men and women equally.
Speaker 2:But the weakness thing isn't just imposter syndrome. The weakness thing is this weird business thing that you've got to be vulnerable. You've got to be the brad bit of bosses, you've got to be the champion ever. You've got to be this invincible, tough skinned, and part of that crap comes from things like Dragon's Den. You know this nonsense, shouting match of like. Oh well, if you think that you're rubbish, off you go. Mr Trunky, you know 100 million Trunky sales later. So on that note, if you think you have any of the characteristics of imposter syndrome and you would like to talk to me about it, completesuccesscom. Tara, thank you for being on the show.
Speaker 2:It's been absolutely fascinating. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:Trish Cut Loved it, All your love. Supermaniacs are always, always right. You.
